was begotten ‘before all times’, ‘created by the will of God before times’. That was to say that the ‘creation’ from God’s will was before the world was made when there was no time. However, Arius made no apology for the use of terms implying time such as ‘before’. By contrast Athanasius at Alexandria wanted to avoid the notion of dependence on the Father’s will, while granting that the phrase had been used in an acceptable sense by writers with an orthodox intention lacking to Arius (Or. c. Ar.